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nnt -



Quote:

even after independence, Vietnamese still regarded themselves as Chinese.The rulers of independent
Vietnam still considered their country a part of China in spite of separate ruling.


There is a slight difference between Chinese emperors' views and Vietnamese emperors' views.(that
is to leave the peoples aside... )

Chinese emperors' always considered Vietnam as part of the CHinese empire, and considered
Vietnamese emperors' title 帝號 as usurped (僭號)

On the other hand, the Vietnamese emperors always call themselves emperors, which in those times
meant a declaration of independance.



Quote:

One emperor of Vietnam thought their country was the southern dynasty while Song Dynasty of China
was the northern dynasty and both belonged to one cultural China.

南國山河南帝居

You misunderstood the real meaning of this sentence: that was a declaration of independance.
An emperor is di4/đế 帝 and second to none, while a king (wang2 / vương 王 ) is subject to
a 帝 .


(That's also why such films' titles as 雍正王朝 is ridiculous : such a film-maker would have
been beheaded 200 years ago and his 3 related families with him )

There is a thread which discussed about relationship between CHinese and Vietnamese languages
(heavy borrowings in vocabulary, fundamental differences in grammar):

http://www. /showthread.php?t=6032



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Zhao Hanqing -

My dear ncao,
I do know Vietnamese don't think themselves Chinese now and there is serious discrimination
against ethnic Chinese in Vietnam.
What I mean is that in the past, a long time after gaining independence from China, the Vietnamese
rulers regarded their country as Zhonghua or Zhongguo. You can find indisputable proof of that in
historical documents of Vietnam. Please read my poster carefully which is in past tense.
Take care!










Zhao Hanqing -

You are truely erudite about history of Vietnam. Yes, Vietnamese emperors called themselves
emperors in their own country behind closed door. When paying tributes to Chinese emperors they
had to call themselves king.
Your remarks about yongzhengwangchao are absolutely correct! I wonder if you are Chinese.










nnt -



Quote:

What I mean is that in the past, a long time after gaining independence from China, the Vietnamese
rulers regarded their country as Zhonghua or Zhongguo. You can find indisputable proof of that in
historical documents of Vietnam

.

THis isn't quite true... I would say the opposite.

The 1st declaration of independance(南國山河南帝居) was not enough, so a second one (in
classical Chinese of course ) was issued 400 years later, after the Ming troops were expelled :


惟我大越之國,
Duy ngã Đại Việt chi quốc

實為文獻之邦.
Thực vi văn hiến chi bang.

山川之封域 旣殊,
Sơn xuyên chi phong vực ký thù,

南北之風俗亦異.
Nam Bắc chi phong tục diệc dị.

自趙丁李陳之肇造我國,
Tự Triệu, Đinh, Lý, Trần chi triệu tạo ngã quốc,

與漢唐宋元而各帝 一方.
Dữ Hán, Đường, Tống, Nguyên nhi các đế nhất phương.


Our country, the Đại Việt, is a civilized country. Our rivers and mountains are different,
and our social customs distinct from those of China. Ever since the creation of our country by the
Triệu, Đinh, Lý , Trần dynasties, we have stood as independant empires, in parallel with the
Han, Tang,Song,Yuan in the North.










Zhao Hanqing -

What I said is absolutely true.
Quite a long time after independence the rulers of Vietnam still regarded themselves as part of
China at least in culture. As time went by, they more and more thought their country an
independent one . Even so the rulers still regarded Vietnam as China, or rather another China. The
places where the emperors of Vietnam refer to their country as Zhonghua or Zhongguo are numerous
in the historical documents of Vietnam. Unfortunately I don't have such books at hand, so I can't
quote you. Of course they considered Vietnam an independent Zhongguo different from the real
Zhongguo. If fact the rulers usurped the title of Zhongguo in my opinion. Although they defeated
Ming troops, Vietnam remained a vassal state of Ming dynasty which had to pay tributes to Ming
emperors all duration of Ming dynasty. Of course the Vietnamese rulers only called their country
Zhongguo behind closed door and they dared not do so in presence of Ming emperors.










nnt -



Quote:

What I said is absolutely true.
The places where the emperors of Vietnam refer to their country as Zhonghua or Zhongguo are
numerous in the historical documents of Vietnam. Unfortunately I don't have such books at hand, so
I can't quote you. Of course they considered Vietnam an independent Zhongguo different from the
real Zhongguo.

This is the first time I ever read that the Vietnamese refer to their country , even in private ,
as Zhongguo. They always call their country 南國 Nan2 Guo2/Nam Quốc as opposed to 北國 Bei3
Guo2/Bắc Quốc (China).

中國 Zhongguo/Trung Quốc has always designed CHina (or part of it ) in all Vietnamese
historical documents. This is basic vocabulary (South/Centre/North) , not syntax...As you may have
guessed, I'm Vietnamese.










Zhao Hanqing -

I realize you an ignorant Vietnamese. Read the following passage.
中土之外自称中华的国度不止日本，越南是另外一个例子。安南历朝政权自�
��“中华”、“中国”的事例，也不胜枚举。例如陈朝兴隆八年（1300），英�
��传檄诸将：“汝等坐视主辱，曾不为忧，身尝国耻，曾不为愧。为中国之��
�，侍立夷酋，而无忿心！”大抵是安南僭称中国之始。

但是越南立国，基本上是趁唐末五代十国混乱之机，以边藩自立，大量上层�
��士来自中国内地，所以长期具有“南北朝”的心态，以现代语讲，就是持��
�两个中国”态度。《大越史记本纪陈纪陈艺宗》：“帝尝曰：先朝立国，自
有法度，不遵宋制，盖以南北各帝其国，不相袭也。”就是明证。在这种心�
��下，甚至有时会自居正统，例如《大越史记本纪实录卷一》载1427年黎朝太�
��谕天下曰：“贼在中国，民犹未定，于汝安乎？昔胡氏无道，贼因此而夺��
�国家”云云，明白表示自己是“中国”，而大明则是“贼”。
Are you convinced my dear?










roddy -



Quote:

My dear nnt,
I wonder how you have acquired such detailed knowledge!



Quote:

You are truely erudite about history of Vietnam.



Quote:

I wonder if you are Chinese.



Quote:

I realize you an ignorant Vietnamese.

Ah, how the mighty have fallen . . . .










nnt -

：“汝等坐视主辱，曾不为忧，身尝国耻，曾不为愧。为中国之将，侍立夷�
��，而无忿心！”
was not written issued in 1300 but is a distorted exerpt of generalissimo 陳 國 俊 Trần
Quốc Tuấn's famous proclamation to his generals during the anti-Mongol resistance in 1282 .
The exact sentence everybody knows is



Quote:

汝等坐視主辱曾不為憂，身當國耻曾不為愧，為邦國之將侍立夷酋而無憤心
Nhữ đẳng tọa thị chủ nhục nhi bất vi ưu, thân đương quốc sỉ tằng bất
vi quý, vi bang quốc chi tướng thị lập di tù nhi vô phẫn tâm ...

夷酋 designing the Mongol barbarian hords



Quote:

“贼在中国"

I have not checked the sentence, but it's true that tặc 贼 (and synonyms like khấu 寇)is
what the Vietnamese called uninvited guests .

"Tặc" = giặc in Vietnamese, like "giặc Minh" above mentioned ,"giặc Pháp" concerning
French , "giặc Mỹ" concerning some American in some historical occasions

The first declaration of independance used nghịch lỗ "逆 虜"

南 國 山 河 南 帝 居
Nam quốc sơn hà Nam đế cư
截 然 定 分 在 天 書
Tiệt nhiên định phận tại thiên thư.
如 何 逆 虜 來 侵 犯
Như hà nghịch lỗ lai xâm phạm
汝 等 行 看 取 敗 虛
Nhữ đẳng hành khan thủ bại hư.

taken from the Vietnamese reference book written in classical Chinese for the history of Vietnam
from the beginning to the end of the XVIIth century 大越史記全書 Đại Việt Sử Ký
Toàn Thư (History of Dai Viet) published in 1697,(in: "Lý Nhân Tông hoàng đế"
李仁宗皇帝 Bính Thìn (year 丙辰 1076 ) .

The 2nd proclamation of independance can be read here :

http://nom.netnam.vn/HanNom/TuLieu/binhngo.htm

which is also taken from the 大越史記全書 Đại Việt Sử Ký Toàn Thư.

A few exerpts :



Quote:

頃因胡政之煩苛。
至使人心之怨叛。
狂明伺隙，
因以毒我民；

Khoảnh nhân Hồ chính chi phiền hà
chí sử nhân tâm chi oán bạn.
Cuồng Minh tứ khích,
nhân dĩ độc ngã dân.


狂明 Cuồng Minh Silly Ming




Quote:

予奮跡藍山，棲身荒野。
念世讎豈可共戴，
誓逆賊難與俱生。

Dư phấn tích Lam Sơn, thê thân hoang dã.
Niệm thế thù khởi khả cộng đái,
Thệ nghịch tặc nan dữ câu sinh.


etc... Classical Chinese is very rich

To Roddy :

“The Tarpeian Rock is near the Capitol”

But as the Great Master of 10000 generations said :
「 學而時習之， 不亦說乎？ 有朋自遠方來，
不亦樂乎？人不知而不慍，不亦君子乎？」










wushijiao -



Quote:

但是越南立国，基本上是趁唐末五代十国混乱之机，以边藩自立，大量上层�
��士来自中国内地，所以长期具有“南北朝”的心态，以现代语讲，就是持��
�两个中国”态度"

What is the source of this? I'm not saying the information is incorrect (because I don't know
enough about it), but it seems like the language is fairly biased. When, by the way, did the term
中国 refering to China come out? I always assumed dynasties where refered to by their names in
ancient Chinese.












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